The Elder Bellecourt
An Interview/Discussion with Vernon Bellecourt
by Antoinette Nora Claypoole

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Prologue

winter air is settling over the great lakes. minneapolis runs cold and clear at this time of year. in december it is a rough car ride from the pacific northwest to the upper great lakes. 21st century interstate hitch hiking too perplexing to consider. motor homes from movie stars a thing of the past. and airplanes fly in and out of the twin cities from portland, oregon depending on the fog and snow, cold and iced over wings.

i have no wings. and little cash to hand over to major airlines. my car has bald tires and those mini skirts which helped me hitch in the old days don't work anymore. so when i realized that Vernon Bellecourt was ready to talk with me about Anna Mae Pictou (Aquash) , when i received a phone call in the early autumn evening of this year 2000 from a veteran of many indian wars, i wondered how it was that we could meet. how it was that we were going to break the silence which has laid over the memory of annie mae like a shroud found and placed over death, too many decades of living undercover.

25 years ago this month [November, 2000] Annie Mae "disappeared" from a hotel in pierre, south dakota. and still the accusations and mystery prevail. about who murdered her, who kidnapped her, who set her up to STILL be considered a federal operant by some. weak minded misfits who search for an excuse to believe her death forgivable.

Vernon Bellecourt has been a target, been blamed for the murder of Anna Mae, accused by former members of AIM and varied news sources in indian country - middle aged men who claim to have an inside tale to sell, and numerous veterans who recall Vernon's rough and "gangster" ways from the old days.

in truth, Vernon Bellecourt has worked for over 30 years supporting sovereignty for indigenous nations, using whatever means necessary to assist the American Indian Movement in its efforts to protect and preserve Indian country. maybe it is his forthright presence, his straight up use of the English language which has given him the reputation of being someone who, as a friend recently said to me, "could as easily have you killed as talk with you on the phone." for some reason i have never perceived the man as someone to fear, as someone who "knocks people off." maybe it is the italian in me. mafia somewhere in the blood and all.

even so, i was at first skeptical, uncertain whether he WAS the man who held the keys to Anna Mae's execution. but this phone call last month from Vernon was clear and heartfelt. a response to my 5 year effort to break the silence about Annie Mae. a response and desire on the part of Vernon Bellecourt to be interviewed by me, not to tell HIS story but to answer questions i have had, questions which some others may need to see asked. AND answered.

the friday after our rally for leonard peltier's clemency in new york city--the rally which was yet another victim of mainstream media BLACKOUT-- friday Dec. 15th . 2000, the day the FBI "stormed" the white house ( as stated by a t.v. station here in the northwest). with fog smothering I-5 and closing down chicago o'hare airport, friday dec. 15th, Vernon Bellecourt and i gave up our efforts to meet in person and we settled for a phone interview. his voice now familiar to me, loud and self-assured, reflective and precise, yet yielding and compassionate. i am a liar if i say i have not come to feel comforted by my time spent talking with Vernon Bellecourt. comforted because he has chosen to speak openly with me about annie mae.

the first person in the old AIM camp to do this. without reservation, without fear and defensiveness. Vernon Bellecourt, a warrior for indian nations, did have an agenda in talking with me. he wanted to give his story to someone who promised to have it published. for when NFIC published an 8 page interview in the summer of 2000 with a man accusing Vernon AGAIN of ordering the murder of Annie Mae, Vernon wanted a chance for public response. yes. his agenda is to try and set his story straight. mine is to honor Anna Mae and clear her name of snitch jacket accusations, help untangle the lies surrounding the "mystery" of her murder. In this way Vernon Bellecourt and i found a common ground. we both have a story we want to be told. we meet in a place ravaged by the twisted sense of time. a place of collecting possibilities...antoinette nora claypoole

Antoinette: I don't even know your birthdate. Tell us when you were born and in what nation.

Vernon: I was born on October 17th, 1931 in the community of Mahnomen on the White Earth Ojibway or the White Earth Anishanabe/Ojibway Nation in Northern Minn. and my missionary name is Vernon Bellecourt. My real name is Wabun-Inini. Wabun means dawn, daybreak or sunrise. Inini means man. So my name translates to Man of Dawn. Again. I am member of Anishanabe/Ojibway Nation of Northern Minn. I currently serve as national representative for the American Indian Movement Grand governing council. Previous to that I was the National Field Director for the America Indian Movement Grand Governing Council. Following the Raymond Yellow Thunder march on Gordon, Nebraska and Alliance, Nebraska in about 1971, between the death of Raymond Yellow Thunder and the 1972 Trail of Broken Treaties march on Washington, I also was appointed by the leadership of AIM at a meeting that took place just south of the Pine Ridge community in Moccasin Park where I was asked to serve as National Executive Director. Additionally, I was asked to serve as a Director of Security for AIM. I served as Executive Director from that date in 1971, I think it was late '70 or early '71 until late 1973 or early 1974 when John Trudell was appointed National Executive Director.

Trail of Broken Treaties

Antoinette: Okay. You were talking about the past a little. And I have a question about the early 70's, back in the days of the BIA takeover. Some people have said that you delivered a speech which is thought to have kept occupiers from burning down the building.Do you remember that. Could you tell us about what the essence of that speech was and why you delivered it?

Vernon: Surely. The Trail of Broken Treaties march on Washington had its origins out of the community of Denver, Colorado. I think it was the Albany hotel as I can recall where we called the first meeting. At that time, I, along with Rodney Skenandore, a Blackfeet/Oneida brother, and a very traditional elder by the name of Alice Black Horse were there. Three of us were the real founders of the Denver chapter of AIM which began in late 1969 and 1970 and on. We were part of a group that organized the Trail of Broken Treaties first meeting in Denver where we agreed several hundred representatives from urban and reservation's tribal government would come together.

And we agreed that just before election week in 1972 we were going to stage a march on Washington, D.C. which was called the Trail of Broken Treaties where 3 caravans of people left from Seattle, San Francisco and LA arriving in the twin cities of Minneapolis/St. Paul. The Minneapolis state fair grounds was where we had stopped to draft what was to become the Trail of Broken Treaties 20 Point Manifesto (which can be found on our website, www.aimovement.org, go to AIM archives). It was a very visionary document that was presented to the Nixon administration literally on the eve of his 1972 victory.

We arrived on Nov, 2...the election was around November 7 of 1972 and we were immediately attacked by Washington, D.C. law enforcement agencies and put under siege at the BIA building which lasted more than a week. In presenting the Trail of Broken Treaties 20 Point Manifesto, later it was revealed that at the time they were attempting to cover up the crimes of Watergate, were totally preoccupied, and did not deal with us on an honorable basis.

During the 7 day siege at the BIA building we had uncovered at least two agents who infiltrated themselves into the building. The one we apprehended actually had his FBI credentials on him and a sidearm which were taken from him. He was then put under guard, but somehow was able to escape. When I say put under guard, we had hoped to talk to him some more and decide what we going to do with him. What was decided was that we were going to turn him over to the FBI on the front steps of the BIA building to show while we were there to petition the congress and the Nixon administration for a redress of grievances, that their response was to try to send agents into our midst. However, the man left the building before we were able to do that.

During that period of time, there were some people in the building that attempted to burn the building down. It is interesting to note that some of them same individuals started fires at Custer S. Dakota when we were demonstrating in support of Sara Bad Heart Bull who was not being able to get response about her grievance against law enforcement agencies who were not investigating the stabbing death of her son Wesley Bad Heart in Buffalo Gap, South Dakota. So there were no doubt agent provocateurs among AIM even at that time.

I said in my speech that we have the responsibility for the safety of all the people who trusted the movement and came out here with us and we can not overreact. Because there were some that wanted to burn the building down. In fact they attempted to and I was literally wakened up after not sleeping for four or five days, I fell asleep right in the meeting with leadership and they made a decision to let me sleep and it was only when people started trying to burn the building down was I awakened and I literally put out two fires myself, because I knew that that would be the worst things we could do. It would fortify ignorant stereotype that all Indians do is go around and burning out the settlers, the Hollywood image and mentality.

Antoinette: You mentioned early on in the your story of the BIA building that there were two people that you thought were agents. I wonder if you would talk about the other person.

Vernon: No. I said that we uncovered agents. And I can't recall their names. But we uncovered at least two but there were other people who attempted to burn the bldg. They were "supposedly" with the movement and then later some of the same people attempted to start fires in fact did start fires in Custer S. Dakota which would cause us to start questioning what their motives were. And of course you realize when you look at pictures of the demonstrations in Custer of Sara Bad Heart, it developed into a police riot and police attacks against us.

But let me start with this other aspect. Then we can come back to whatever questions you have. Now following the trials at Wounded Knee the attorneys started to get 302 forms. 302's were reports given to the fbi by different agents informants who infiltrated the movement. Their names were all blacked out. But we started to pour through those forms and then later I went to the FBI headquarters under the FOIA and started to pour through thousand and thousands of files. (These documents are on our website www.aimovement.org under Ministry for Information, the U.S. war against AIM, Council on Security and Intelligence....we have reviewed some 17,000 pages).

Cointelpro

What we find out is that within the white house they started a deep covert program, even deeper than cointelpro itself. Where they admit to recruiting extremist informants they now call them. To infiltrate AIM for the purpose of misdirecting, disrupting, discrediting the leadership by demeaning them, villanizing them, dehumanizing them in order to destroy AIM. Those documents indicate of course that they did carry out that program and continue to carry it out right into the present. We are convinced that the program continues to the present. And that this whole thing, these accusations on Nov 3 last year by Ward Churchill, Robert Branscombe, and Russell Means about our alleged involvement in the killing of Anna Mae Aquash is a continuation of that FBI program to destroy AIM.

So it is fact that this program started in the white house under Nixon and it continues today and everything that has been happening down through the years, Doug Durham, John Stewart, Blue Dove, Bernie Morningun, who we uncovered as agent operatives. It is a well known fact by now that Doug Durham's strategy was to put a snitch jacket on different people. To my knowledge and recollection he was the first one that we later exposed and he admitted to being an fbi operative. Who had actually infiltrated Dennis Banks.

Antoinette: So the impact of realizing this infiltration, what was it? Was there someone in charge, did you have a team of people that then decided to do some kind of high maintenance as you knew you would be infiltrated again? Once you found Doug Durham, at that point did you set up a strategy and do you have a strategy that exists now?

Vernon: Doug Durham never deeply penetrated AIM. Doug Durham was to Dennis Banks what Ward Churchill is to Russell Means today. In other words, what the agent operants do is they will try to get close to different leaders of the movement, be seen with them which then gives the appearance that they are trusted. In other words if we see someone with Dennis Banks we could automatically think "He must be okay if he is with Dennis Banks." Not all of us of course, because we realize the strategy. But as I indicated in the beginning, I was named National Executive Director. I was also put in charge of security. And that unit remains in place to the present. We continue. At this very time we are in the process of an intensive investigation that will no doubt lead to other agent informants that had infiltrated, were part of the movement and then betrayed the cause and are still operating on one hand by saying they are members of AIM while at the same time under that cover attacking the leadership and AIM. So, the investigations have not ceased. Beginning in 1971 when I was named Director Of Security until the present we continue that investigation.

Accusations

Antoinette: You mentioned the press conference last year. A lot of the press has not been always kind to you, media in Indian Country especially have blasted you and criticized you, especially lately with the execution of Annie Mae being brought to surface and AIM being implicated. Why do you think you are personally being attacked? For you do insist you had nothing to do with Annie Mae's death. Why are YOU being attacked for this and what do you think the motive is? What is behind these accusations?

Vernon: What is behind it is the same FBI orchestrated program using agents willing or unwilling or knowing people like Ward Churchill, Russell Means and Bob Robideau in particular. Those three have started this disinformation campaign by attacking the leadership of AIM, making wild allegations. Now what you have to understand about Ward Churchill...this man is still under investigation (we publish reports of our investigation on our website under ministry of information). This man claims to have served in Vietnam as an information specialist. Now, if one would analyze what information specialists did in Vietnam...they were actually misinformation specialists putting out misinformation to set up assassinations of Vietnam leaders, etc. When he got out of the military (in his own writing) he states this. What we are maintaining is that this guy is part of a misinformation campaign. In answer to your question, what he tends to do is take 5% fact and mix it with 95% bullshit and stirs it up to the point where people out there begin to question our message. In other words they begin to question the messenger rather than read the message.

Now that was picked up by the Native News outlets and Native American press here in Minneapolis. I have a lawsuit that is moving through the courts because they have now become part of the misinformation campaign. That is, the writer here, Joe Geshick has admitted being an associate of Ward Churchill. Joe Geshick also attended those sham tribunals in California. And it seems to be that the 10 or 12 people that are all lined up with Ward Churchill, seemingly are all behind this misinformation campaign, who previously almost every month or so accused someone else of being implicit in the death of Anna Mae. First it was John Trudell, then it was myself. And now they are suggesting it is Dennis Banks.

Now this is a very important point in response to your question. About 7 years ago, after having looked through files of documents, I called a man named Gordon Regguinti, who was the editor of the Circle newspaper here in Minneapolis, and Paul Demain, editor of News from Indian Country. I invited them over to my house. I sat them down and I start putting all these documents in front of them. I said, "you know Paul, I get a sense that a lot of journalists, particularly Indian journalists, you can dangle news right under their noses and they can not see or smell a story when it is put right in front of them. But here is what I think," and I start telling them about the attacks Ward Churchill was launching.

How Ward Churchill had gotten Russell Means to meet with the CIA in Virginia. Later, under director of Ward Churchill and Glen Morris, Russell Means entered in from Costa Rica to Nicaragua with the CIA sponsored contra, and in fact actually caused the death of Miskito Indians. When we confronted Ward Churchill with that, he and Russell Means came back and accused us --that is, Bill Means, myself and Clyde---of causing the deaths of Miskito Indians. There were people that were with them, and they know for a fact that it was Russell means that in fact caused a Miskito Indian village to be bombed with several people being killed. But what happens with this misinformation campaign, whenever they're confronted, they come back and make the same accusations--such as accusing me of being an FBI agent, accusing my brother of being an FBI agent. It is a typical misinformation campaign.

So Paul Demain---if you look at past publications---picked up on the story. Started to investigate Ward Churchill, after years. Of course he was also investigating Dave Hill. [You know] that chronology Demain put out about Anna Mae? Did you ever notice all the different entries on Dave Hill? Of where this guy was when this happened and how the U.S. attorney moved to dismiss charges in the name of justice?

Following Dave Hill being caught with bomb making equipment; they know he bombed Mt. Rushmore; they know he bombed in Pine Ridge; they know he was involved somehow with Anna Mae Aquash at his home in Rapid City; they know he was involved with the thing up in Oregon with Marlon Brando's mobile home; and they know that he was charged with altering the serial number of a 357 magnum. What I basically said to Paul, "You ought to take a look at this, is this a coincidence?" Because Dave Hill also showed up at the BIA headquarters in Washington D.C. on the Trail of Broken Treaties. He was also in Custer S. Dakota. He got beat up by the police in Custer during the demonstrations and rally in support of Sarah Bad Heart Bull because he was right up front provoking the police riot. He was enraged by the beating, and exclaimed, "I'm not even Indian, man." Many of the Indian people were indicted for this incident and went to prison but not Dave Hill. I said, take a look at this Paul. Is this just a coincidence?. Take a look at Ward Churchill."

I was amazed when Paul Demain showed up at the press conference on Nov. 3rd last year and following his listening to the accusations made by Russell Means, Bob Branscombe and Ward Churchill, he came back and published the allegations without consulting us. In other words - in the interest of objective journalism - before you publish something as inflammatory as that Richard Two Elk article you would call those people that are being accused. He didn't do that. He published an eight page report in the summer. We were completely shocked by it. And outraged. Because where was Richard Two Elk in the last twenty years. And how is it that he shows up on Nov. 3....this is part of the same misinformation campaign (our formal response to that is on our website).

As far as we are concerned that was the end of it. But then Paul Demain starts editorializing, asking us to follow Richard Two Elks' advice and [saying] we should all resign from AIM and turn it over to women. Not that there aren't women out there that we've always welcomed to be part and some ARE part of this movement. In leadership. Those women themselves were amazed.

While DeMain published eight pages of the Two Elk diatribe, he was steadfast in refusing to publish my response and the letter from Ali El Issa, husband of Ingrid Washinawatok stating that he did not have the space in his paper. Only after I insisted that in the interest of fairness and objective journalism [my response be included] did he later publish my response. It was just amazing. But in any event, that's how this whole misinformation campaign continues to snowball.

Right now were are trying to get a cap on it. What we did is we filed suit against [a] local paper here called [the] Native American Press. That is going quite well. I was trying to meet a deadline to file a defamation suit against Ward Churchill, Bob Branscombe and Russell Means for their accusations in Denver on Nov. 3. But there was a one year statute of limitations. And with my busy schedule I did not manage that too well. But we are pursuing action probably out of similar statements that were made out of S. Dakota where we have another year or so. Before the statute expires.

Guilty fingers pointing?

Antoinette: So a whole lot of what you are explaining is about that reverse attack of these people toward you. Now the logical part of me says that if these people are blaming you, Dennis, John, - perhaps THEY'RE the ones responsible for the Annie Mae's execution, in setting up the murder. Because as you know that is an important piece of what we want to be talking about today. Is Anna Mae. So what happens in the minds of readers, because a lot of people listen and read News From Indian Country, or listen to Paul Demain. What happens when they hear you and Dennis and John say, "No. This is ridiculous." What happens is that people want then a further answer. We can say that people set up this misinformation, but still we need to understand, people need to understand, about these accusations of someone ordering the execution of Annie Mae. alright. Someone within AIM. What was going down at that time? In December, 25 years ago?

Vernon: Let me deal with that this way. First of all, based on our investigations, me pouring through all these different documents, Ward Churchill, who was a white man, IS a white man, arrived on the scene, according to his own words: "teaching" the Rapid City police department about AIM. You could take the word "teaching" out of it, put [in] "informing," very easily. And that's exactly what he was. And that is what he is today. He admits to being this white man standing behind the hill from Porcupine on June 26th, [1975] [-] being behind the hill from Porcupine, urinating against the hill when he witnessed these FBI federal marshalls, BIA police with armored personnel carriers in Vietnamese war type uniforms doing a sweep. Right? Was that just a coincidence? Wouldn't it make more sense that Clyde or Dennis Banks might be behind a hill? What's this white man doing there? He was on the periphery. When you look at other people that fit a pattern as I suggested, you see Dave Hill. Someone has to take a real serious look at that. I am looking at documents right now. A list of fingerprints found inside Jumping Bull. Dave Hill appears.

Antoinette: Help me connect this to the time in late November when Anna Mae was released from the court, went to a hotel - you know how Demain's investigation has gone - Demain has a whole timeline that he does. Bob Pictou Branscombe might have even different time line than that, really, though he really doesn't publish it. Help us understand what YOU remember, what YOU know was going down. Where were those guys?? Do you remember - where WAS David hill - do you remember where was Ward Churchill.???

Vernon: Let me get to that. Let me just make a definitive statement here. And that is that when you look at the whole situation, the time frame, and where people were, based on the declassified FBI, justice department, CIA, and White House documents, we know they have recruited up to 40 some they say Indians, but we believe there were non-Indians masquerading as Indian.

We are also absolutely convinced that the conditions at Jumping Bull were set up. The fire fight was sparked by some of these extremist informants that lead to the death of the two agents [and] Joe Stuntz and Leonard Peltier being imprisoned for 24 years. I am absolutely convinced that some of the same people who were on the periphery may well be some of the agent/informants, extremist informants who were also on the periphery of the killing of Anna Mae Aquash. It was in fact a concerted program by the FBI to arm and advise the goons who were nothing more than mercenaries who created the climate of terror which perhaps lead to the death.

People have to try and understand the extreme paranoia and fear that the people were forced to live with in Pine Ridge during this time. The paranoia spread, and created suspicion of AIM members being informants. The violence and brutality escalated and it lead to the death of Pedro Bissonette, and other AIM members including Jancita Eagle Deer, who was last seen in the company of Doug Durham, she was supposedly run over by a car on a highway. The sniper deaths of Buddy Lamont, and Frank Clearwater in Wounded Knee were just the beginning. But this whole climate of terror that was created by the FBI was a campaign to do exactly what it did. Which was all designed to try to discredit AIM by one, setting up the death of Anna Mae [and two] blaming it on the movement...and that effort continues today.

Antoinette: What do you say about these two young men and this Theda Nelson Clark who some say were there, that they executed Annie Mae and they were told by AIM to kill her?

Vernon: I haven't seen Arlo since I left Denver Colorado in 1973. I went out there to speak in 1983 and I ran into Arlo Looking Cloud and Rick Two Elk. They came to my hotel room (I have that in my article that is on the website, so I'm not going to go over this again).

When I first met Rick Two Elk he walked into the AIM office on Colfax Avenue - unlike what he said, that Rod Skenandore and I were trying to buy marijuana from him. What the hell would Rod and I being doing walking down Colfax Avenue trying to buy marijuana. I had no idea the young guy even SOLD marijuana. He walked in off the street. The point I am trying to make is there is no initiation rites to be a member of AIM. Anyone could claim to be a member of AIM. We have no control over that. Ward Churchill claims to be a member of AIM even though he's been booted out of the movement.

But I understand in reading documents and research that Arlo Looking Cloud - good looking young man when he came around AIM - professed along with Richard Two Elk that they were members of AIM, participated in AIM activities. He got a very serious sickness of alcoholism and drug addiction. And for 20 some years has been staggering around the streets of Denver. I understand that the FBI had him in their control for several months. It is alleged that he made statements that leaders of AIM ordered the execution of Anna Mae. ...In spite of the fact that there's been 3 grand juries and I haven't been called by any grand jury to testify. Up until after Nov. 3 last year [1999] when an FBI from Rapid City called and wanted to know if I wanted to take an opportunity to make a response to Russell Mean's allegation. I referred him to our website. I said "That's our final answer. That's our position. Look there, I'm not going meet with any FBI agents." That was the end of it. No one's been called. No one's been indicted.

Now I don't know what Arlo Looking Cloud has said, but no where has anyone been able to say that Vernon Bellecourt, Clyde Bellecourt, Dennis Banks, Russell Means, ever ordered the death of Anna Mae Aquash. Except for Russell Means, no one has have ever been called to a grand jury. None of us have ever been charged with giving an order. As far as I know, Arlo Looking Cloud is alleged to have made some statements, I haven't seen the statements, I don't know what the statements entail...

Antoinette: Right. But how do YOU Vernon, feel personally about those accusations. In other words you were around. Alright? And how do you feel personally when you try to piece this thing together, yourself. What happened to Anna Mae? What do you see that might have gone down. And what kind of investigation, if any, did you guys do when this went down?

Vernon: Well. You asked a couple questions. Let me take the first one. I have heard as everybody else has heard, the names of three persons who are alleged to have kidnapped Anna Mae from Denver. Took her to S. Dakota, took her to the home of Thelma Rios and Dave Hill in Rapid City, supposedly had her maybe at Crow Dogs' or Al Running - who Al Running, it turned out, was an agent/informant and was involved in the raid on Leonard Crow Dog. His own brother in law's home...[he] supposedly told the FBI that the gun that was found in the Bob Robideau vehicle on the Kansas turnpike was the weapon that Leonard Peltier had to shoot the FBI agents. And all that manufactured evidence and ballistics trying to link Leonard to that gun which seems to be one of the key pieces of evidence that keeps Peltier in prison.

In spite of hearing these names, not any one of three have been indicted. None of them have gone before a jury much less a jury of their OWN peers, that would be Indian people and so I can't set here and tell anybody...I told John Trudell the same thing, I have told everybody that's talked to me "I don't know for a fact whether it was those three individuals who were responsible for the killing of Anna Mae Aquash. I can't say that." If they were to set down with me all three of them and say: "We did it. This is how we did it." Then I would have to accept their word for it. I have not heard that. So I don't know whether they are [the murderers] or not.

But I will go back to what John Trudell said very early on. John Trudell said at that particular time - now he's convinced that those three did it but he one time said "We don't know who pulled the trigger. But what we DO know is the FBI is responsible for it." Now if you look at the whole thing of the FBI pathologist W.O. Brown, in Scotts Bluff, Nebraska, who has now passed on into...wherever people like that go. I was gonna say spirit world but where ever people like that go. His examination, was it racist? Or was it an attitude that it was just another Indian woman that staggered off the road and froze to death - when he attributed her cause of death to exposure??

[Antoinette notes: I have tried to confirm this statement by Vernon about John Trudell believing that these 3 people were present at the execution of Anna Mae, but being "the holidays" I have been, as yet, unable to reach him for comment. Therefore, note that this statement may no longer be true.]

I don't know what his motive was but I wanna tell you this. The first time I started being concerned about the fate of Anna Mae was when her sister called me from Nova Scotia, said that they had heard that a woman was buried in an unmarked, unnamed grave in Pine Ridge. She had her two daughters with her there and they know that Anna Mae would not stay away. Would not come home or at least call and they were very concerned and could I help them. I immediately called Ken Tilsen. I told Ken, "I just got a call from the sister of Anna Mae." I believe I gave Ken her phone number, and I gave them his phone number and they communicated. On the basis of that, Bruce Ellison was contacted by Ken Tilsen. He went to a federal judge, had the body exhumed and they found that her hands were missing. Ken Tilsen arranged for Dr. Peterson, who is still on the staff of Ramsey County and Hennepin County Medical Centers. He is their forensics expert, did an independent forensics exam. It was then that he found that this person had died from a gunshot wound.

Old news

Antoinette: Alright. Now this is all old information. You know this. We've got that. We've had that for a long time. We've had that since Johanna Brand did a really good job of trying to run through it all. But YOU on the inside of this Vernon, you got the phone call, you got Ellison onto it, that was good, but when you realized it was Anna Mae, when you and Dennis and some of your other friends, friends of ANNA MAE when you all realized this was her. What did you do with that? How did YOU sort through it? WHAT did you sort through, what did you find inside of yourselves in looking around about what happened?

Vernon: Okay. Here's what we continue to do. As recent as the advisory committee to the U.S. commission on Human Rights hearings in Rapid City last year. We called on Sen. Orin Hatch, the head of the Judiciary Committee of the U.S. Congress, to do as they were doing in Waco and Ruby Ridge. To call for congressional hearings in S. Dakota to examine and investigate the whole role of the FBI in this whole era of time. And I said not only to investigate the death of Anna Mae Aquash, ...but i gave a whole list of names in my presentation ....

Antoinette: I'll try to come at it just one more time. Alright? Some people have accused you of ordering the execution of Annie Mae. We know this. And we know how you deny this. But would you explain what you might know of her murder, who you believe executed her, how it went down.

Vernon: Okay. This is what I strongly believe based on my continuing investigation. And as I told you earlier I was appointed as Director Of Security at Moccasin Park and I continue to do that work and I did it down through the years. And it is my conviction that what happened was that the FBI through its' extremist informants set into motion a plan. And as I told you earlier, Doug Durham was one of the first we start hearing about during that period time. People would come to me. They came to me with concerns about Doug Durham, about Bernie Morning Gun, about Blue Dove, about John Stewart to name a few of several. They came to me, they came to me because they knew that was my job. That was what I was to be doing. And so during that time they also came to me with concerns of Anna Mae Aquash.

Antoinette: About her being an infiltrator.

Vernon: About her being a possible informant. And I started to make inquiries. I discussed it with people that had brought the information to me, and of course I can't recall exactly when it was...there was some documents that came out in trials about there being agents A and B, having been in and around Peltier and Dennis Banks, Kenny Loudhawk, Kamook Nichols, Russell Redner, with this whole Marlon Brando mobile home thing, and that, during that time there were several people who expressed - some that I can't recall who they are - concern about Anna Mae Aquash. And as I started to sort it out, I came to the conclusion that it was part of the snitch jacketing process first started in my opinion by Doug Durham. In my mind I dismissed it immediately, because at some other meetings that I wasn't present, Doug Durham tried to expose certain other Indian men and women as being informants. And that was his job. To create that type of suspicion and paranoia.

Antoinette: So while Doug Durham was still close to Dennis Banks, he began some of this Anna Mae fervor?

Vernon: Yes. So. Sure I've heard the allegations that these three individuals kidnapped her from....

Antoinette: Wait. Vernon. Let's go back to where you were. So, in your mind, you dismissed it, you decided that she wasn't a snitch jacket.

Vernon: That's right.

Antoinette: And what made you decide that?

Vernon: Well, just based on her being around. You know I never did get to know Anna Mae REAL good. If you were to look at the whole picture, you would find that certain groups of people like Russell Means, Dennis Banks, myself my brother Clyde, had certain colleagues that they kept together in their own groups. A group came out of the northwest out which Bob Robideau and Peltier and Dino Butler and Nilak and others were sort of part of their own groups. I watched that as that developed. And I was wondering why that was developing. Because immediately seemed like Bob Robideau attempted to start creating division between different leaders of AIM. I didn't think it was a good pattern.

But Anna Mae was with the Dennis Banks group. And I didn't really get to know her that well. I don't even know how many conversations I had with her. I seen her at different conferences, and I've been asked the question several times, "When's the last time you've seen her?" I can't answer that question...I vaguely remember seeing her where I'm accused of supposedly telling Bob Robideau, Dino Butler and Leonard Peltier to take her out and interrogate her. And the language is ..."Bury her where she stands." That isn't even the way I talk. I never said that.

Antoinette: Some people have said that you sent those guys out to cross examine Anna Mae. In New Mexico. In Farmington. But you are saying that did not happen?

Vernon: You know I have to say that didn't happen, because I don't recall and I'm sure I would. Had I said it, that it actually happened. But as I reflect back I believe I seen her with a group of people I don't know who they were, pull in to the Farmington conference. And we were there because of the deaths of many Navajo men. Do you remember that? And so we were very busy organizing a march in Farmington and everything. I believe I seen her there. I believe I seen her during the trial of Crow Dog I think it was in St. Louis. But I really wasn't associated with her that close. I know at that time that information came to me that people considered her a suspect of being an informant. I don't know what else I can say about that.

Head of Security

Antoinette: Well. As Head of Security. Alright? Cause you mentioned you were asked to head up security. As Head of Security how did you respond to these accusations about Anna Mae?

Vernon: Well. I took them all very seriously. I mean I started sorting them out. Tried to gather other information if I could. To be observant. But as I said...

Antoinette: You didn't ask the guys to talk with her, to kinda check her out? You never had her checked out by anyone?

Vernon: No. I never did talk to her. I never did talk to her about it. About the suspicions. She never came to me. And so I was as shocked as anyone when everybody found out that in fact that was her body in that unnamed grave. And since then I have continued to try and investigate this thing. I have continued to do that right up to the present time.

Antoinette: As Head of Security Vernon, if someone came to you - say when you suspected Doug Durham - weren't there certain things you did when you thought somebody was infiltrating and what WERE those things? Did you not do some of those things with Annie Mae as well?

Vernon: Well, unlike the situation when Dino Butler, Margaret Brigham and I finally went to Des Moines, Iowa. We had bits and pieces of information [about Durham] and we went to Des Moines. Margaret Brigham had used to work for ....welfare fraud. So she had some talent on how to find people. I also used to be in the real estate business and I know how to use city directories.

And I recall that Durham said his ex-wife name was such and such and she worked for state farm insurance. So I went to the city directory...Marilyn...I found the name Marilyn Durham and we found an address. Then we went over there and we talked to some neighbors, Margaret went up and talked to some neighbors and said she was a distant relative of Doug Durham and was trying to find him. And they said he used to live right there but he moved to the other side of town. The woman gave us the corner, described the house. I called Dennis Banks, I called John Adams, who was with the United Methodist church, who help raise the bond money for Dennis Banks $125,000 from the diocese from Des Moines which was the money that bonded Banks out and Durham flew Banks up into Northwest territories in what he, Durham, said was a borrowed plane, in hopes that Dennis would jump bond.

Basically what we did is Dennis Banks and John Adams came to Des Moines, we went to Doug Durham's house and found his home and we questioned him and he admitted he WAS an agent in the presence of John Adams and Dennis Banks and myself. Later on he was going to meet us in Chicago, which he did. By then the FBI agent handlers obviously got their story together and he just sort a gave us more bad information. Later on he was brought before Sen. James Eastland committee to investigate the violation of national security laws. They only brought him in as a witness. He filled them full of lies. On the basis of that they were able to withdraw some 6000 pages of documents out of White House justice department CIA files which as you know are placed under national security cover. We believe it goes to the heart of the FBI campaign, the Jumping Bull incident, Anna Mae's death, the government campaign of informants and agents. And that is why we can't get those 6000 pages.

But yes. We confronted Doug Durham. I can tell you that we HAD NOT arrived at that point with Anna Mae. And this whole thing in my opinion spun out of control, where for whatever reason some took action without any input from the leadership of AIM. Including myself. So I think that's what happened there.

Murder

Antoinette: So. Why do you think she was murdered?

Vernon: Well, I can only read what other people know.

Antoinette: But you know. Being there. When you heard about it. When you realized, when they exhumed the body that it was Anna Mae, and even though you hadn't known her that well, as you say, you knew that she was there and she had a certain role in Dennis Banks life, and the people he was working with. But what was your gut reaction, your response, inside of yourself, did anything phase you?

Vernon: My response? My response is the same as it is every time when I have visions of them opening up that casket and seeing this young woman laying there with her hands severed.

And that to me is as shocking as can be. It remains shocking. I still see the image of that. It sickens me that that happened to Anna Mae.

Antoinette: And why do you think it happened?

Vernon: Well, obviously this campaign which was a consorted effort by the FBI to cause....you know they did the same thing with the Black Panthers. This is a repetition of that campaign to cause people to start killing each other. A case in point. Bringing it up to the present time. On November 3rd last year. The only people I ever heard in this movement of hitting somebody, or offing people. Russell Means had said it at least two or three times publicly - had he known that I and Clyde gave the order to execute Anna Mae, that he would have offed us.

We have not talked about offing anybody. But again it is part of that whole thing with Churchill and Russell and Bob Robideau. I have tape recordings of Bob Robideau calling my house here and attempting to shoot me. Kill me.

Antoinette: When was that?

Vernon: Ah. God. Four, five years ago when he lined up with Ward Churchill and all these people. I got tapes of prank calls made by Ward Churchill to my house, threatening violence against me. I have got the tapes. I'll share them you one of these days...So, the only person I ever heard offing people was Russell Means. One has to ask the question, who WAS Russell Means, who IS Russell Means?

Antoinette: Okay Vernon, let's go back to Annie Mae. Were you there when they exhumed her body?

Vernon: No. No.

Antoinette: Cause you said....looking at her dead body....

Vernon: Well. I have images of that. Recurring images of that.

First meeting/Anna's husband

Antoinette: Do you remember the first time you ever met Anna Mae and how you might describe the role that she played in early AIM?

Vernon: Sure. You know it is said about AIM, that AIM is first a spiritual movement, a religious rebirth, and then the pride and dignity in a People. Again in our website in the home page, there's a thing that's written by Birgil Kills Straight. I constructed that after Richard La Course gave me the notes. Said "do with them what you want." So I structured it where it kinda made sense. But those are basically the words of Kills Straight.

So having said that, Antoinette, hundreds if not thousands of young people like Anna Mae came from all parts of the country. I understand she came out of the Boston Indian Center. I found out she was MicMac. I found out she went to Wounded Knee. I know that she married Nogeeshik Aquash. Who also died a violent death. Do you know what happened to him?

Antoinette: Yes. Right. Right after he was investigating her death...Wait, you tell me what you heard.

Vernon: First of all, following the time that it was ascertained that that body in that casket was Anna Mae, her family and others up in the Maritimes over in Nova Scotia, they organized a speaking tour for me and I actually stayed at the home of Anna Mae Aquash's sister. And I was there. Her daughters were very small at the time. I stayed there.

And of course Margaret Brigham who along with Dino Butler assisted us in busting Doug Durham, lived on Walpole. And that's where Nogeeshik Aquash is from. So I went up there one time with Margaret. I was with Margaret for seven or eight years. I went up there with my two youngest boys. And Nogeeshik was there.

Antoinette: How long ago was this?

Vernon: Right after Annie Mae's death. And he asked me if I would walk with him back to his home. So we walked through the bush some distance and we finally arrived at kind of a frame house, very small house, very typical of homes on the reservation where the people have been living in poverty for decades. So we had a nice visit and then we left there.

Then I later on heard that he was in a car accident, that he became a paraplegic. And I seen him at different gatherings, I think the last one I seen him at was one over there on the LacCourteOreilles reservation in Wisconsin. And then I heard later that the house, that frame house burnt down,. That he tipped over in his wheelchair and he burned to death. Very tragic, when you look at the whole story, it is very tragic, how she died and how he died...

Antoinette: Nogeeshik, had, according to his nephew, Mickey Aquash, who lives around where you live there, in Minneapolis, or did a couple years, he said that Nogeeshik had just returned from doing his own investigation into what happened to Annie Mae. And that he had information about how she died. That he had made a couple calls, and then it was that night that Nogeeshik's house burned down.

Vernon: Oh no...my god. Is that right? I wish that I could put the pieces together if that was after he had left the conference at LacCourteOreilles. I think it was some time later...

Antoinette: Did he ever ask you about her? About her death?

Vernon: No, no. I considered Nogeeshik a friend of mine. Even to the present.

Antoinette: Did he ever say what he thought happened?

Vernon: No. He never really talked to me about it. You know I can't say for sure that he never talked to me about it. But nothing that stands out. You know we are talking about 25 years here. And you know, I believe I've got a real keen mind. I can meet people that I met 30 years ago and I'll remember their names. They're actually amazed. But you know some things start to go after a while...I am 69 now.

Visiting Anna Mae's family

Antoinette: Do remember going up to Nova Scotia, you said you were over there with Anna Mae's family. What stood out in your mind about that visit?

Vernon: Well, I enjoyed meeting with them, and visiting with, and staying at their home.

I think I stayed with them overnight. And then they had me in some of the other Maritimes, and I stayed in hotels, and maybe stayed with other people. But I believe we just had some discussions about Anna Mae and her life and the work she was doing. I can't remember all the details. I can remember a sort of chronology of what happened, but I can't remember all the details.

Antoinette: So is there something now that you would like to say about Annie Mae to her family. Because you know there are these camps again. These divided camps. And with her own second cousin, Bob Pictou Branscombe being there in that press conference last November and her daughters hearing the accusations, the family supporting Bob. He is with them and spends time on this. For them to hear the allegations about you, makes another round of division.

Right? So is there something you would like to say....to the family.

Vernon: I am tortured on how to handle that. I thought what I would do is send them a whole packet of declassified FBI documents, showing the pattern that I've shared with you, how I believe very strongly that the FBI in the way that they do it, that they set in motion a conspiracy, Anna Mae happened to be caught up in that and I would want to tell them...that I wish that I would have done more when I was hearing people express concerns about her being an informant. The fact that I discussed it with people, I have to bear the responsibility for that. I wish there was something more I could have done to put a cap on it so that it didn't happen. It is a tragic situation. If I could relive the whole thing again perhaps I could've said something, did something that saved her life. What can I say Antoinette? I mean that's just the way I feel about it. What do you say?

What happens is I got a call from a journalist up in Toronto in October last year.

And he said, did you know that yesterday a man by the name of Robert Branscombe...a man who claims to be a relative of the Pictou family appeared at a press conference along with a head of the a national Indian organization in Canada along with the daughters of Anna Mae and accused you and Clyde and Russell Means as having been involved in the death of Anna Mae Aquash. And I think he named the three persons whose names are still floating around today. And he said "What do you think of that." And I said, " Well. How did the press report it." He said, "Well, there were such wild allegations that except for one radio station who took the story off right away, none of the other media would touch it. But I wanted to know what you thought about it." And I explained to him, not in great detail, what I thought about the whole thing, and what I thought was the cause of Anna Mae's death.

And then the irony of that is that a month later, less than a month later, Russell Means appears with him and Ward Churchill in Denver on Nov. 3 , making the allegations against us. Robert Branscombe may well be a sincere, honest man, however, when he aligns himself with Means, Churchill and their agenda, it tends to discredit him.

I should have thought about it a little more before I responded in the media. But we put out a statement in saying I can only suspect that Russell Means was attempting to deflect what his role MAY have been. And of course on the basis of that Paul Demain picks up and he starts with the Two Elk article and AIM leaders accusing each other. Paul Demain made a complete 360 turn there and I believe in his mind, he did not specifically accuse me, but he accuses me of covering up. I can't cover up something I don't know all the details about, Antoinette, I really can't do that.

But I can tell you that when I stood up on the 25th anniversary with Norman Brown, Dino Butler, Nilak Butler and others at that hill on Oglala, when I stood up on that hill at Oglala at the gravesite of Anna Mae, I talked about this government campaign that caused the gunfight at Jumping Bull, that botched FBI job that lead to the death of their agents...Who incidentally are marching right now by the 100's. I'll get to that in a moment. That not only do we have to work to free the spirit of Joe Stuntz, Joe Kills Right, Anna Mae, as we work to free Peltier. That is my feeling. And I stood there and I made that statement very clear.

Now we have 3,000 people demonstrate in New York last Sunday for Peltier, and 350 people marched in Minneapolis in subzero weather. Not any of the local or national media covered it in New York, but every network is covering this FBI march on the White House.

Responsibility

So we are hoping that Bill Clinton will follow through and give executive clemency. There's been a lot of work 20 some years of work done to free Peltier, perhaps not enough work has been done to free Anna Mae. But I can tell you that to the extent that I can and the resources I have, I continue to work to try and expose the whole campaign that lead to the death of Anna Mae Aquash. And if you were to ask me did I have any responsibility for the death of Anna Mae Aquash, I have to bear partial responsibility in that I could have done something perhaps to have stopped what eventually happened. It spun out of control, I wasn't able to stop it and I regret that to this day.

Antoinette: How do you think you could have stopped it Vernon?

Vernon: Well, perhaps I could have been more forceful in getting the message out that I did not feel that she was an informant. And I'm gonna tell you something. That even today I have heard some people say and I am not going to say who, I don't want to throw further fuel on the fire, I have heard some expressions "Well what makes you think she WASN'T an informant?" So I mean that still lingers. That is regrettable.

And frankly my own gut feeling was that she wasn't an informant.

Finally

Antoinette: Do you have any final words to say Vernon?

Vernon: I want to conclude with this. Since the death of Anna Mae Aquash and the shooting of the two FBI agents and Joe Stuntz at Jumping Bull and the deaths of dozens of other people, there have been at least THREE grand juries called. There may be one setting at this very moment, I don't know, because not ONE of us have ever been called, other than that FBI agent who called me last November. No one's been indicted. They claim to know the three people who kidnapped her and murdered her, they claim to suspect certain ones of us having been responsible for ordering her death, yet after all these years, the FBI who is supposedly one of the finest and efficient law enforcement agencies in the world have not solved the death of Anna Mae Aquash. Have fought right up to the present time to keep Leonard Peltier in prison. Why is that? You have to ask that question. Once people ask that question, I think that everything else that I shared with you becomes very clear.

It comes to one conclusion.

That they are going have to give up some major agents/operants and further expose their own involvement if they tried to try anyone.

And then Vernon breaks into a story about Vine Deloria who was in some of his lectures very critical of the American Movement, according to Vernon. Tells me how Deloria was booked into Northrup auditorium in about 1974 at the University of Minnesota campus, "so naturally many of us went out there to hear what he had to say. Not that Deloria would criticize us while we were sitting right there. But at one time he was talking about AIM and the government's concerns about who we were, he was talking and he stopped, Deloria said...'incidentally. You AIM people out there in the audience. There is no need to be paranoid. Because they're REALLY out to get you'"

[Antoinette speaking]:

i cannot tell you how the weather was in minneapolis, the day after our interview. but here in southern oregon a south wind blew out the fog which had held the valley captive. some sun broke through just as the phone rang. no kidding. it was vernon. "Antoinette, I have been thinking about one question you asked me yesterday. That very difficult one. About what would I say to anna mae's family. And i wanted to say more. I wanted to say that all too many people are trivializing her death. For their own agendas." i told vernon that what he had said the day before was just fine. that i wasn't going to change a thing. that the tapes/interview would stand as testimony AND that he had spoken from his heart, something which helped to balance his many other words. "yes?" yes i assured him.

much as i assured myself. as though surviving mission schools and wars which are still raging wasn't enough, i wanted more from this veteran of many battles. i wanted answers. who murdered her. what happened. where were you guys and what did you do after she died. did you look for the murderer. and why weren't you at her funeral.

so i phoned Vernon with two more questions which were haunting me, ones which I believed many of us want to know about. having just spoken to Paul Demain - to confirm in fact that Vernon HAD been with Demain in conversations in Vernon's home about Ward Churchill (which Paul DID confirm), presented Vernon with more...and I urged him, "This will help people understand what happened. If they can hear you speaking clearly about the specifics of that time of Annie Mae's kidnapping/murder."

Antoinette: According to Paul Demain, in an old interview (1994) you did with him, you mentioned that you believe that Annie Mae was picked up by FBI and David Price. Recent developments have shown us that in fact is NOT the case. Can you explain why you said this, and what it is that you think NOW about who picked up Annie Mae during that time??

Vernon: Based on information brought to my attention in regards to the early September 1975 FBI raid on the home of Al Running and his brother in law, Leonard Crow Dog's residence, Anna Mae, Dino Butler and other were arrested by FBI agents, one thought to be David Price. According to observers, Anna Mae was seen being driven off by FBI agents.

Additionally, we have all heard of the death threats on Anna Mae made by David Price.

Also, we know that David Price was present at the scene when Anna Mae's body was found. We also know that David Price, along with other FBI agents were in and out of FBI forensic pathologist, W.O. Brown's lab when Dr. Brown falsely attributed her cause of death as exposure and as we found out later her hands were severed and were found in a FBI laboratory in Washington D.C.

[Antoinette notes:
Here we had a mix-up. For I was referring to Annie Mae being picked up in Pierre, S. Dakota in November 1975. Vernon thought, I believe, that I was referring to the September bust. We have yet to clear this up.]

Antoinette: On the CBC special, Fifth Estate (released Nov. 2000), Candy Hamilton stated that she was present at WKLDOC in Rapid City on Dec. 11 and 12th of 1975 during an interrogation of Annie Mae. What is your response to this...what do YOU know of this - what do YOU recall of the specifics of those interrogations?

Vernon: In regards to the CBC special 5th Estate, the producers of the program called me and asked if I would consent to an interview. The first thing I asked was who else are you interviewing? They told me they were interviewing Dennis Banks, John Trudell, Warren Almand, the Canadian Justice Minister during the 1970's. I specifically asked if they were going to interview Ward Churchill or Russell Means in which case I would not consent to be interviewed. They indicated they would not interview either, at which time I agreed to the interview.

Of course, they were dishonest with me, and did in fact interview Russell Means and Paul Demain, both of whom I will have nothing to do with. I can only speculate that they did not include my interview because of preconceived notions as to what they wanted to hear from me versus what I said...

Additionally, the producers of the CBC special agreed to send me a copy of the program after its release. That has not happened. Consequently, I cannot comment on anything that anyone may have said in their interviews. I really don't know anything about alleged interrogations of Anna Mae at the Wounded Knee Legal Defense/Offense Committee offices in Rapid City, SD in December of 1975, other then the rumors and innuendos of such an incident occurring and persons in attendance.

This is a question that should be asked of Candy Hamilton.

we were hurried. In this last round of questions. As Vernon has to drive North to the rez. Helping a family member with his passing. And I on my way to visit Louise Benally in Big Mountain. Yet, I want more, to ask again..."But as leader of security, wouldn't you know about such interrogations of Annie Mae?"

This will have to wait for next time. Today I am left mostly with a murmur, still and earnest, over and over in my heart, Vernon's earlier, haunting response, when i asked him, to his surprise, to offer some words to Anna Mae's family...

"...if you were to ask me did I have any responsibility for the death of Anna Mae Aquash, I have to bear partial responsibility in that I could have done something perhaps to have stopped what eventually happened. It spun out of control, I wasn't able to stop it and I regret that to this day."

though I now trust Vernon never ordered the execution of Anna Mae and sense his sincerity when he states he does NOT believe she was an informant, I am left wanting more. For there IS more to know. Yet, Vernon Bellecourt has to live with the fact that people took Anna Mae Pictou's life, and as director of security he didn't see it coming clearly enough. This I believe is perhaps the deepest pain a man, a warrior, can bear. Knowing there was danger and realizing not enough was done by him to protect, to honor, a sister.

Vernon Bellecourt does his time every day. and I believe that in the spirit world forgiveness is a way of life. From this I learn many things - mostly that there are no words, none exist, for the us we all long to be.